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Maelstrom Changes Proposal

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 10 post(s)
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 08:34:00 - [1] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 08:40:33 Nice post Testy. Currently the ship still has a 8/6/6 layout, which will make it one of those ships that cant decide what its going to do, and be bad at both. On the other hand, minmatar is supposed to be very versatile. So if the slot layout remains the same, I would prefer a cap recharge bonus instead. That would give anyone options if they want to armor tank it or shield tank it and still have a cap recharge bonus while doing it. We'll see how it performs on the test server when it arrives though. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 08:52:00 - [2] Well, at least the ship seems to be a pretty good artillery boat with a good alpha strike, even with the ROF bonus. So perhaps we will all be happy when it shows up on the test server. My battleship skills with minmatar are practicly non-existent though, so I put my trust in the ones who have them. Why do the Rohk need 7 medium slots btw? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 09:16:31 Originally by: Dixon By the same arguement that the maelstrom whiners use. It's a sheild tanking turret ship... Yes, but since the Rohk HAS 7 medium slots currently, and Maelstrom has 6, im wondering why the reasons are good enough for one ship and not another. There are 2 different weapon systems on them though, so maybe the Rohk needs more modules to be efficient? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Testy Mctest There's nothing wrong with the Rokh having 7 mids, but the Maelstrom needs it's 7 mids even moreso than the Rokh does, for the reason mentioned above. In fact, there's not really a good reason for the Maelstrom not to have 8 midslots, as the entire ship, in any setup you give it, will be very midslot-centric. However, trying to keep some semblance of Minmatar design theory and Minmatar fluff in the ship (which, as always, is our downfall), we've proposed 7. Well, thats what I figured in my own post about the Maelstrom. And now you guys have came to the same conclusion really. What I would like to know is the reasoning from Tuxford behind the slot layouts on both of these ships. Why does the Rohk need 7 and the Maelstrom need 6 when they are both long range shield tankers? Instead of complaining about it, im trying to understand Tuxfords reasoning about it. Im sure he didnt just think "Raven +1, yeah, that gotta work". --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Dixon You know, I don't think 7 medslots are any less needed on the maelstrom than on the rokh although more lowslots are nothing to sneeze at. Fill those lows with PDU II and gyro II and you'll have a superb tank and great damage. I actually don't think either setup is 'better' they're just different How is 7 medium slots not better for a shield tanker? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Dixon Well as a Raven pilot I can tell you that 5 mids for sheild tanking is more than enough... and the Raven has no bonus to tanking. The lows are great for tank support and damage. I actually don't think anybody will ever use 7 slots for sheild tanking... it's just silly. Silly you say... (1x built-in invulnerability field with no stacking penalty) + 1x Cap injector 1x Shield booster 2x Shield boost amplifier 1x EM hardener 2x invulnerability field ii Should give you pretty insane resists vs ALL with quite insane shield boosting on top with the 2 amps. Or you could just use cap injector, 1x EM, 2x invuln, 1 shield booster and then throw 2 multispectrals on there for fun. Actually im going to buy this ship and do just that. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 12:20:42 Originally by: Jake Ironskin Edited by: Jake Ironskin on 31/07/2006 12:18:39 Hmm, thinking of this. we'll now see the (afaik) first shield tanked mining BS? (same for the rokh) you can shoot me now. -edit, srry for the unintentional alt- Rokh is better for that too. Bigger cargo, more cpu, resists > shield boosting, extra medslot. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:53:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 12:53:24 I think this ship will become a really good solo pvp ship with a specific setup i have in mind. Needless to say, it doesnt use the shield boosting bonus at all, but will still be insanely hard to beat. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 12:58:00 - [9] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire 8/6/6 solo ship? Yep. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 13:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Tiuwaz I also still dont see the sense of an artillery ship with a bonus to an active shield tank (besides pve >_>, in which case i'd still prefer they typhoon for pve, missiles >> projectiles) Something i missed before is that the Rokh also gets 4 missile launchers. Perhaps it can manage to be better than the Typhoon as well... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 14:53:00 - [11] Ok, who asked for a mission runner for the minmatar? I want to kill him. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 16:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Kazaam Edited by: Kazaam on 31/07/2006 16:57:21 I don't think it needs another med slot imo. Don't forget that if the stats remain that way, it will have a built-it Shield Boster Amplifier I at BS 4, and like a built-in Gist B-Type Ampli at BS 5, which actually saves a slot. I personnally think Maelstrom's ed slot lay out is quite justified. My 2 isk. People are just comparing it to Rohk and feel it shouldnt be worse because its Minmatar and not Caldari. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 20:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 20:33:35 You know, it might not be such a bad thing that this ship is a shield tanker...it allows for a gank + tank setup that has more dps than Megathron & Hyperion up close.. While the gallente blasterships can only fit 1 damage mod and still have room for a good tank, the Maelstrom can fit 3 damage mods and still have a decent shield tank. 1x MWD 1x Cap injector 1x Warp disruptor 1x XLarge shield booster 2x Invulnerability field II No room for web and EM resists will be low. Tanking will be decent, although not uber in any way. If this ship has tacklers in the group, the tank can become really good. Anyway... Now check the dps graph with 8 of those lovely 800mm guns fitted (if it fits)... Lovely isnt it? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 21:42:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 31/07/2006 21:47:19 Originally by: Ath Amon you should include even the Rokh, it outdps the mael basically at every range, with same tracking, imo generally better damage type and, with same mid slots, better tank. It doesnt, but its close if the fight take place under 10000 meters. If its at 20000 meters Maelstrom has about 200 more dps compared to the Rohk. But Rohk has the superior tank, thats for sure, and also wont have any speed penalties. And here is some sniper dps, where the Abaddon looks absolutely lethal. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 22:06:00 - [15] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Excuse me but is it a T1 or shield T2 booster? It makes a big difference. When using T2 booster I could only fit 425mm's, AB and 2 t2 gyros with 0.25 cpu left. It seems like most ships, if you want T2 tank you can't do damage. The T2 tank I fitted with small guns had a slightly better tank than the max tank of a Tempest so i'm unsure how you get more tank+damage than the Mega. full setup posting 4tw :-p It wasnt intended to be a proper fitting... I didnt even include module names. The stats on the ships are not final yet, so its pointless really. Just wanted to say that it might be possible to get a decent autocannon setup on this ship after all. Or maybe not. We'll see. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 22:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Ath Amon (ahhh try this abaddon with 8 mega, range ammo, 3 heatsinks and 1-3 tracking comps) 8 Megabeam T2 (3 damage mods, 3 tracking comps) with Aurora gives 551 dps out to about 170.000 meters. So about 50 less dps than tachyons. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 22:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Ath Amon yup yup but look at distance not a solo ship for sure but imo quite scaring (tachs at 50km have troubles with tracking :( ) It will be very scary, yeah.... More Abaddon insanity --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 23:05:00 - [18] Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Jim McGregor It will be very scary, yeah.... More Abaddon insanity That's with Icomeinpeace's 5% damage/level bonus, not the abaddon and its stats as in Tux's blog NB. Oh thank god... Thanks mate. Didnt know. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 23:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Understood, CPU is a very important factor, its the main constraint. See some of setups I posted on team minmatar with stats from the proposal. I think it would take 650 CPU to upgrade the guns, probably 675 for the gyros to. 700 CPU to get a MWD on it to. Thats without changing the T2 tank, named cap booster and named scram+web. I find putting setups to proposed stats gives an idea of there ability more than comparing it to other ships stats. So you saying and showing graphs of a Mael out tanking + damaging a mega in this "proposal" topic could give the people who type before they think something to whine at. The stats in this proposal prevent T2 800mm's, 3x gyros and a T2 tank without a CPU II. Good point. Just found myself happy about some minmatar dps that wasnt crappy... I figured this ship could work with 6 mediums and still have a use. But its looking more and more like its not going to turn out that way... Oh well. We'll see. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.01 22:03:00 - [20] Originally by: Raziel Demon Seccond page of Hyperion thread... nice He is on and off vacation though. But he talks about a blog coming out soon, so maybe that one will reveal if he thinks this ship looks fine or not. At least they are messing around with the ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.01 22:23:00 - [21] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 01/08/2006 22:25:01 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Hellraiza666 Fitting CPU: 625 PG: 21000 HI-slots: 8 MID-slots: 7 LO-slots: 5 Turrets: 8 Launchers: 3 21k power grid, haha yeah right. Why not? Because no ship should have more powergrid than the Caldari. Anyway... im really looking forward to that blog now... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:28:00 - [22] We might as well train for the Hyperion too, it looks to be a really cool ship. And its on the path to the Machariel too. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 10:24:00 - [23] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 10:29:31 Originally by: Aloysius Knight so has anyone come up with a good idea why we can't have a 8-7-5 layout? Maybe Tuxfords latest blog will tell us. I feel like we are misunderstanding what the ship is about. Since Quake ammo is pretty useless for simultanous tanking (with the cap and range penalties), I guess Tremor is the way to go? But even with Tremor, the ship needs two tracking computers (and a sensor booster to be able to lock things) to reach 158k range according to naughtyboys excel sheet. Thats 3 medium slots gone, leaving 3 med slots for tank. While the Rohk doesnt seem to need any tracking computers and reaches 218k with Spike. Its damage is lower than the Maelstrom, but it has 6 medium slots for tanking instead (using one for a sensor booster). It also has a 100k lock range to start with. So maybe this ship is really intended to be a slow autocannon platform instead, with more tanking ability than the Tempest. But on a autocannon boat, you need to use a MWD to get in range, and a booster to use the ship booster bonus. So that leaves it 4 slots for tanking. Cap injector + EM + 2 Invuln II I guess. I dont know, the ship feels just as awkward as the Cyclone. I dont like it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 12:30:00 - [24] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/08/2006 12:31:54 Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Johnny Bravo Edited by: Johnny Bravo on 02/08/2006 11:01:53 For long range arty platform Maelstrom NEED damage bonus instead of ROF. With RoF bonus it NEED 7 medslots to be decent AC platform. With just 6 medslots and ROF bonus i know what i would fly Tempest in fleet battles and close range PvP every time. Same damage, better flexiblity for 30-40% less cost always win. My feelings exactly . With Quake and 3 damage mods, it would have an alpha strike of 7000 damage. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 15:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Testy Mctest You do realise that a RoF bonus gives you more DPS than an equivalent dmg bonus, right? We don't need more damage; 8x 1400mm II is already a hell of an alphastrike. A damage bonus would be imbalanced. It's DPS that artillery lacks, anyway, so I'd much rather see the improved DPS option. Autocannons lose on both counts; they gain more DPS from the RoF bonus, but then have to reload more and lose DPS. And thanks to the RoF bonus, no cargohold can sustain more than a couple of fights' worth of ammunition and charges. Their DPS and other things aside, autocannons really need a look at due to this. But this is a Maelstrom thread, so :) Actually i dont think its overpowered compared to the other tier 3 ships...but only because the rest looks so insane. But we'll see what the real slot layouts and cpu/grid becomes on these ships. 1 month to go until september, and I bet kali will show up on the 31:th. =) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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